It’s Both — Living in the Messy Middle

The messy middle doesn't always announce itself. Sometimes it arrives at 40 years old with three kids, a career you left behind, and a life you have to rebuild from the ground up — while you're still in the wreckage of the one you lost.
Donna Jean Kendrick was 40 when her husband Greg died by suicide. What followed wasn't a clean grief arc. It was the duality of relief and devastation existing at the same time. It was quiet minivans and shower tears. It was oodles and noodles budgets and concussions at baseball games and a zero book of business and a mission she didn't know she was building toward yet.
In this episode, Donna and I talk about the anxiety and major life changes that come with losing a spouse suddenly — and what it actually looks like to survive, then slowly, imperfectly start to thrive. We talk about the complicated grief of suicide loss, the identity shift from wife to widow to single mother, the emotional complexity of finding love again and blending a family of six kids, and what it means when the beautiful life you build after only exists because of the one you lost.
We also talk about the moment her stepchildren's mother passed in 2024 — and how her own kids, who had been there before, knew exactly what to do.
This is a conversation about grief and relief. About the gap between surviving and living. About transition anxiety, identity shift, and holding the love of two people at the same time without looking away from any of it.
If this episode brings up anything difficult, please know you can reach the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline anytime by calling or texting 988. You are not alone.
Get Connected & Support the Show:
- Grab your free resource, What If You're Not Doing Anything Wrong — It's Just Hard Right Now, and give yourself permission to just be where you are.
- Listen to the companion podcast: It's Both- Guided Meditations for Anxiety, Emotional Regulation, & Real Life Transitions
- Free access Donna's webinar and personal document locator, Don't Leave Your Loved Ones Without Answers 
- Order Donna's books HERE
- Follow Donna on Instagram or visit her website 
- Subscribe, rate, & review It's Both on Apple Podcasts
 

The messy middle doesn't always look like one hard thing. Sometimes it looks like being biracial, bisexual, a therapist, a storyteller, a single dad, and a first-time memoirist — all at the same time, all in the same body, all navigating the anxiety of major life changes while asking the same question: who am I when I can't fit into one box?
Johnzelle Anderson has been living in the duality his entire life. Growing up mixed race in Southwest Virginia in the 90s, raised in whiteness while being told he looked like a man he was never allowed to know, navigating a marriage, a separation, a bisexual identity shift, and a trip to Sierra Leone with his six-year-old daughter — all while starting over and helping other people heal from the exact kinds of wounds he was still uncovering in himself.
In this episode, Johnzelle and I talk about what it feels like to grow up being asked "what are you?" — and what it takes to finally answer that question for yourself. We talk about the transition anxiety that comes with losing who you were before you know who you're becoming. We talk about writing a memoir structured not in chapters but in tracks, because that's how memory actually moves. We talk about holding mixed emotions — grief and gratitude, identity and belonging, connection and isolation — all at the same time. And we talk about what it means to be worthy of connection — not entitled to it, worthy of it — and the difference between the two.
This is a conversation about identity, emotional complexity, and the messy middle of becoming more fully yourself. For anyone who has ever felt like too many things at once and wondered if that meant something was wrong with them — it doesn't. That's just what it feels like to be human.
Get Connected & Support the Show:
- Grab your free resource, What If You're Not Doing Anything Wrong — It's Just Hard Right Now, and give yourself permission to just be where you are.
- Listen to the companion podcast: It's Both- Guided Meditations for Anxiety, Emotional Regulation, & Real Life Transitions
- Order Johnzelle's book HERE
- Follow Johnzelle on Instagram or visit his website 
- Subscribe, rate, & review It's Both on Apple Podcasts

The messy middle isn't always about a crisis you can name. Sometimes it's the slow realization that the timeline you had in your head — married by 30, partnered by 35 — just isn't happening. And instead of asking what's wrong with you, what if you asked something different?
Shani Silver has been single for over 13 years. She's 43, she deleted her dating apps in 2019, and she wrote the book — literally — on reframing singlehood. Her newest book, What If We Never Get Married? A Happily Ever Answer, sits with the question most of us are too scared to ask — and finds out the answer is so much better than what we've been taught to fear.
In this episode, Shani and I talk about the anxiety and life transitions that come with aging into singlehood, the grief of a timeline that didn't happen, and what it actually looks like to be happy while single — without swearing off love or pretending you don't still want it. We talk about how the dating industry destroyed dating culture for profit, why light bulb moments are for movies and not real human lives, and what partnered people don't realize they're doing to their single friends.
This is a conversation about permanence, grief, desire, and radical permission. You can want love and be happy alone. You can be in the messy middle of a life that doesn't look like what you planned — and still be living a full one.
For anyone navigating major life changes in how they see themselves, their relationships, or their future — this one is for you.
Get Connected & Support the Show:
- Listen to the companion podcast: It's Both- Guided Meditations for Anxiety, Emotional Regulation, & Real Life Transitions
- Order Shani's book HERE
- Follow Shani on Instagram,  on TikTok, or visit her website 
- Subscribe, rate, & review It's Both on Apple Podcasts

The messy middle of being surrounded by people and still feeling completely alone. Jason Lange is a men's embodiment coach who helps men reconnect to their hearts, their bodies, and to each other. The data is staggering: in 1990, 3% of men reported having fewer than three close friends. By the late 2010s, that jumped to 15%. Post-COVID? Likely even higher.
This is a conversation about life transitions, anxiety, and major life changes for men navigating the loneliness epidemic. About why male friendships stay surface level, why so many men turn to alcohol, porn, or overworking to self-regulate, and what it actually takes to go deeper.
We talk about triangulation — the default mode of male connection where the focus is always on a third thing (sports, an activity) instead of each other. About why men collapse in shame during sex instead of staying connected. About the difference between sexual performance and sexual connection. And why men's groups might be one of the most powerful tools we're not talking about.
In this episode:
— Why 15% of men now report having fewer than three close friends (and it's getting worse)
— The both/and of having friends AND feeling lonely because you never talk about what's real
— Triangulation: why men bond over sports games instead of eye contact
— How to take the first step: go first, don't wait, lead with vulnerability
— Living in your head vs. living in your body — why embodiment matters
— Why so many men in their 20s are showing up with ED (performance anxiety, not physiology)
— The missing nutrient of masculine connection, peer support, and love
— Why belonging and purpose are the two deepest needs for men
This is for anyone who's wondered why men struggle to go deep. For men ready to feel fully alive. For partners who want to understand what's beneath the surface.
Jason is a men's embodiment coach, podcast host (Evolutionary Men), and facilitator of men's circles.
Life isn't either/or. It's both. And you're allowed to hold all of it.
 
Get Connected & Support the Show:
- Listen to the companion podcast: It's Both- Guided Meditations for Anxiety, Emotional Regulation, & Real Life Transitions
- Follow Jason on Instagram , visit his website, & listen to the Evolutionary Men podcast
- Subscribe, rate, & review It's Both on Apple Podcasts

The messy middle of getting everything you thought you wanted — and still feeling empty. Cassidy Gard spent years at Good Morning America producing breaking news stories that shaped the national conversation. Emmy Award-winning TV producer. High-achieving. Living the dream in LA. And also carrying generational trauma from growing up with an alcoholic father, absorbing vicarious trauma from the stories she told, and battling anxiety and depression behind the scenes.
Then the pandemic forced stillness upon her. She drove to Montana, bought a cabin she named Cosmic Goodness, and started rebuilding. She met her partner at a sound bath in Joshua Tree. She became a mom to two boys under two. She left the high-pressure career.
But then came the next messy middle. She moved to the suburbs of Long Island — a beautiful beach town where the nearest Target was an hour away. And she loved her kids fiercely AND she was bored, isolated, disconnected from the creative communities that fed her soul. This is a conversation about life transitions, major life changes, and the both/and of ambition and motherhood.
At two months postpartum with her second son, she made a radical choice: rent out the house and become a nomadic family, moving to a new city every six weeks.
In this episode:
— The both/and of loving your kids deeply AND feeling suffocated by suburban life
— Growing up with an alcoholic father and how perfectionism became survival
— Vicarious trauma from producing breaking news stories about mass shootings and the Me Too movement
— When the pandemic forced stillness and everything changed
— Meeting her partner at a sound bath on 2/22/22 in Joshua Tree
— The identity crisis of early motherhood: "Shouldn't I be content just doing mom life?"
— Postpartum anxiety after her son's injury at 8 days old
— Postpartum rage and resentment when her partner got to keep working
— The divine timing of life: scripting your future and making micro decisions that lead you there
— Learning to have fun with yourself before you can have fun with anyone else
— Becoming a nomadic family with a toddler and infant (currently living in Paris)
This is for anyone navigating the both/and of success and burnout, gratitude and emptiness, loving motherhood and needing more. For anyone who's built a life that looks good on the outside but feels hollow on the inside. For anyone in their own reinvention.
Cassidy is the author of Cosmic Goodness: Surrendering the Shadows to Live in the Light, a debut memoir published by Simon & Schuster (releasing May 12, 2026). She writes about childhood trauma, perfectionism, ambition, motherhood, and the quiet synchronistic moments that guide us toward what's next.
Life isn't either/or. It's both. And you're allowed to hold all of it.
Get Connected & Support the Show:
- Listen to the companion podcast: It's Both- Guided Meditations for Anxiety, Emotional Regulation, & Real Life Transitions
- Order Cassidy's book Cosmic Goodness HERE
- Follow Cassidy on Instagram or visit her website 
- Subscribe, rate, & review It's Both on Apple Podcasts

Have you ever needed to talk to someone, but you didn't want their advice? You didn't want them to fix you or solve your problem or tell you what to do. You just needed someone to hear you. Not interrupt. Not redirect. Not make it better. Just... listen.
The messy middle of holding it together everywhere else and falling apart inside. Erin Snow spent nearly 17 years as a legal advocate for survivors of domestic violence and sexual assault. She made history as the first paralegal in New Hampshire to represent clients directly in family court. And then she became a mother, went through a divorce, and was navigating life transitions and anxiety — with no space to say what she actually needed to say.
So she created one. The Unmuted Room is a professional listening service for people going through major life changes who need space to speak without packaging it prettily, without making it palatable, without managing how the truth comes out. This is a conversation about why sometimes the answer isn't advice, it's just being heard.
In this episode:
— The both/and of being an expert in trauma advocacy AND hitting rock bottom yourself
— Why what goes unspoken doesn't disappear — it just grows heavier
— The difference between therapy, friends, and a neutral listening space
— How we manage ourselves in every single room (work, home, relationships)
— "How do you want me to listen to you today?" — the question that changes everything
— When you need to say it out loud but you're terrified of what might come out
— The verbal smash room: letting it out however it comes out, no filter, no fixing
— Why listening is not "just" anything — it's the thing we're all missing
This is for anyone who feels like they're holding it together in public but falling apart in private. For anyone who needs permission to not be fine. For anyone managing how much truth they reveal because they're worried about the response.
Erin's work lives in the gap between therapy and friendship — a space where you can show up messy, raw, unfiltered, and just be heard. No treatment plan. No diagnosis. No solutions unless you ask for them. Just space.
If you've ever thought "I just need someone to listen," this episode is for you.
Get Connected & Support the Show:
- Listen to the companion podcast: It's Both- Guided Meditations for Anxiety, Emotional Regulation, & Real Life Transitions
- Schedule a FREE 10 minute consultation with Erin HERE
- Follow Erin on Instagram, Facebook, or visit her website 
- Subscribe, rate, & review It's Both on Apple Podcasts
 
 

The messy middle of making a decision your brain knows is right, but your body doesn't believe yet. I'm moving my family across the country. Logically, I know it's the right choice. But my body? My body is still holding onto the fear, the anxiety, the grief of what I'm leaving behind. This is a conversation about life transitions, major life changes, and the gap between knowing something is right and feeling it.
Maybe you're in a relationship you know needs to end, but you're scared to be alone. Maybe the job isn't fulfilling anymore, but starting over feels terrifying. Maybe you've made the right decision, but your shoulders are still up by your ears and you can't shake the pit in your stomach.
In this episode:
— Why your brain can say "we're good" but your body says "I'm still terrified"
— The both/and of being ready to move forward AND grieving what you're losing
— The Chrome browser metaphor: when your nervous system has 20 browsers open with 15 tabs each
— Why saying it all out loud doesn't have to come with a solution
— Microdosing stillness when you don't have time for hour-long meditations
This is for anyone navigating anxiety during a major life transition. For anyone holding contradictory feelings — excited AND overwhelmed, certain about the decision AND uncertain about what comes next. You're not broken for feeling both. You're human.
No toxic positivity. No five-step fix. Just real language for the space between who you were and who you're becoming.
If you're in the messy middle right now — between what was and what's next — you're not alone. You don't have to go through it alone.
Also check out: It's Both: Guided Meditations for Anxiety, Emotional Regulation & Real Life Transitions — I recorded a meditation called "The Space In Between" for exactly this feeling.
Life isn't either/or. It's both. And you're allowed to hold all of it.
Get Connected & Support the Show:
- Listen to the companion podcast: It's Both- Guided Meditations for Anxiety, Emotional Regulation, & Real Life Transitions
- Subscribe, rate, & review It's Both on Apple Podcasts

Living in the messy middle for three years. Lane Igoudin and his husband Jonathan raised two babies — a newborn and a one-year-old — while not knowing if the court would let them keep them. They were shut out of the court cases determining their daughters' futures. As an interracial, same-sex couple during the pre-marriage equality era, their relationship wasn't legally recognized. And the birth mother? She was a teenager in the state's custody herself.
This is a conversation about life transitions, foster adoption, and navigating major life changes when the system isn't designed for families like yours. It's about the both/and of building a family on uncertainty — the anxiety of desperately wanting to be fathers while knowing it could all be taken away. For anyone holding joy and grief, hope and fear, love and loss — all at the same time.
Lane is the author of A Family, Maybe, a memoir about his family's three-year battle through the Los Angeles County foster care system. He's a professor of English at Los Angeles City College and has shared this story on NBC, NPR, and dozens of podcasts because it's a story that rarely gets told: what makes a parent? Is it biology, or is it care and commitment?
In this episode:
-What it's like to live in the "maybe" for three years while raising babies you might lose
- The both/and of foster adoption: attach fully AND be ready to let go
- How Lane and Jonathan were treated as "non-related caretakers" despite being the only parents their daughters knew
- Why the foster care system prioritizes birth parents' rights over children's wellbeing
- What happened when the judge at their adoption hearing didn't even know their children's names
- The spiritual takeaway that sustained them: love your partner more when everything feels impossible
- Why Lane reads tarot cards (only for himself) and what they told him during the process
- The question his book explores: What really makes a parent?
No toxic positivity. No fix-it mentalities. Just real language for the feelings you couldn't name, and permission to hold all of it at once.
Get Connected & Support the Show:
- Listen to the companion podcast: It's Both- Guided Meditations for Anxiety, Emotional Regulation, & Real Life Transitions
- Follow Lane on Instagram, buy his book, or visit his website 
- Subscribe, rate, & review It's Both on Apple Podcasts

The messy middle of parenting can look like following every rule you were given — and watching your family fall apart anyway.
Marissa Franks Burt, author of The Myth of Good Christian Parenting, joins Nikki P to talk about what happens when a parenting blueprint promises outcomes it can't deliver — the prosperity gospel of family life, the spiritual authority that silenced parental instincts, and what healing looks like for families navigating the fallout across generations.
— Why blueprint parenting creates a prosperity gospel for families— How spiritual authority kept parents from trusting their own instincts— What instant obedience training actually teaches children (and it's not what you think)— The pathway to repair for adult children and parents navigating this together— You can love your faith AND question the systems built around it — both things can be true
This isn't about villainizing parents. It's about naming what happened so healing can begin.
In this episode:
- Why evangelical parenting advice became a prosperity gospel for families navigating life transitions
- The spiritual authority that kept parents from trusting their instincts during major life changes
- How instant obedience training grooms children for future abuse
- What it looks like to hold both good intentions and real harm in the messy middle
- The pathway to repair when adult children experience their own faith transition
- Permission to parent without a formula — and still hold your faith through the anxiety
This isn't about villainizing parents. It's about naming what happened so healing can begin. Because you can love God, question the system, and choose connection over compliance — all at the same time.
Listen to the episode with Brian Recker HERE
Get Connected & Support the Show:
- Listen to the companion podcast: It's Both- Guided Meditations for Anxiety, Emotional Regulation, & Real Life Transitions
- Follow Marissa on Instagram, get connected, or visit her website 
- Subscribe, rate, & review It's Both on Apple Podcasts

What happens when the version of strength you've been taught stops working — and being a "strong man" makes you a terrible father?
Olaolu Ogunyemi is a leadership speaker, author, and U.S. Marine Officer who became a dad at 19. He thought leadership meant being the hammer. Then he yelled at his three-year-old daughter and watched her break. That moment changed everything — and put him face-to-face with the gap between who he'd been taught to be and who he actually wanted to become.
This is a conversation about navigating major life changes in how you think about masculinity, emotions, and what it means to lead. About the messy middle between military toughness and emotional presence. For anyone trying to break cycles they didn't even know they were in — whether you're a parent, a leader, or just someone realizing the person you've created isn't who you actually are.
Olaolu shares the moment he knew he had to change, how The Lion King vs. Frozen explains generational shifts in leadership, why vulnerability isn't weakness (it's protecting the injured offensive lineman), and the mood meter tool he uses with his kids to name 50 emotions when he was only taught to name four.
In this episode:
-Why yelling at his daughter broke Olaolu's idea of masculinity
- The Marine Corps mentor who said empathy isn't weakness
- How to stop overthinking your emotions and start naming them
- The both/and of leading and following, controlling and letting go
- Why being uncomfortable isn't the problem — avoiding it is
- How to set boundaries between who you were raised to be and who you want to become
- What "Lead Last" actually means (it starts with leading yourself)
Get Connected & Support the Show:
- Listen to the companion podcast: It's Both- Guided Meditations for Anxiety, Emotional Regulation, & Real Life Transitions
- Follow Olaolu on Instagram & visit his website or his LinkedIn
- Subscribe, rate, & review It's Both on Apple Podcasts